宇野：「まどか」を見て、久しぶりに「奇跡」のイメージを更新してくれる表現に出会ったように思いました。その新しいイメージというのは、 片方にとっては一ヶ月しか時間を共有していない同性の相手との関係性という、普通に考えればあまりにも根拠が弱く脆弱なものをベースに「奇跡」が起こると いうことに尽きるんじゃないかと思います。まどかとほむらの間には狭義のセックスは成立しないし子どもも生まれない。それを特別なもの、入れ替え不可能な ものとする根拠は何もない。

しかし、そこには「奇跡」が成立している訳ですね。少なくとも観ている人はそう感じてしまう。そこに明らかに物語の力、作り話ゆえの詐術が 働いている。そして僕らがアニメのような虚構性の高い表現に求めているのはこういう物語の力、つまりは本来あり得ないものを可能にしてしまう力を見せてく れることじゃないかと思うんですね。それこそがまさに「奇跡」なわけです。

When I [Uno] watched Madoka, it came upon me that I had met a presentation that updated the image of “miracle”. And I think this new image is about going deep with the “miracle” that occurred from a base of the relationship of two people of the same gender in which one side had only barely one month of sharing time with the other side, something that by conventional thinking would put as lacking ground and thus fragile. Between Homura and Madoka sex as narrowly defined could not happen and no child could be born between them. There is no ground whatsoever that would be said to be special and irreplaceable. [Editor’s note: “Sex as narrowly defined” is referring to Japanese law where no penetration = no sex.]

However, from there a “miracle” was established. At least those who watched the show feel that. And here clearly some tricks from the power of story-telling and the fictional account were at work. And what we seek from media with high degree of imagination like anime is this kind of power of story-telling, that is, showing to us the power that can make possible something originally impossible, I think. This is precisely what is a “miracle”.

虚淵：奇跡という単語を引き継いで話せば、僕にとって奇跡というのはあくまでも単なる偶然に見出す行為に 他ならないんです。当事者にしてみれば、祈りの結晶だったり信仰の拠り所になっているようなものであっても、より大きな視点に立ってみれば、起こってもお かしくない出来事がたまたまその瞬間に起きたということに過ぎないんですね。確率的に言えば、宇宙を何百回か繰り返せば物質をすり抜けるようなことが起 こってもおかしくないわけでしょう。だから、あくまで奇跡の価値というのは人間がある偶然的な出来事に意味を付け加えるという行為そのものにあるのだと思 います。

最終回でのまどかとほむらの絆というのも、実は奇跡が起こった後で成立しているものなんですよね。まどかがキュゥべえに願いを伝える段階で は、彼女にとってのほむらは何を言っているのかよくわからない電波女なわけですよ(笑)未来から来て何度も時間を繰り返したらしいけど、こっちは一回分し か知らないぞっていう。だから、まどかの祈りの動機はむしろ全ての魔法少女を救いたいというところに根ざしていて、必ずしもほむら個人に向けられたもので はないんですね。ほむらが何回もループを繰り返して因果を束ねたおかげでまどかが因果律を捻じ曲げるほどの力を持っているわけですから、ほむらの気持ちは 常にまどかの方を向いているけれど、まどかがほむらの真の想いを理解するのは全能の力を手にした後なわけです。

Gen Urobuchi – If I can keep the use of the word “miracle”, to me a miracle is at the end nothing but some behaviour that got noticed by chance. For those who were involved, it could be the fruit of praying or something that became the foundation of a faith, but if we look at it from a broader perspective, it may be just some occurrence that is not that unexpected which somehow happened at that moment. This is like, from a probability point of view, if the universe were to start over several hundred times it is not unexpected that some material may slip through. So at the end the worth of miracle is what additional meaning human put upon some accidental happening.

In the last episode, even the bonding between Homura and Madoka was established only after the miracle happened. At the stage when Madoka spoke out her wish to Kyubei, for her Homura is a denpa (wacko) whose words she could not understand. (lol) Although [Homura] came back from future and rolled back time many times, for her she only knew her only the first time. Therefore the motivation for Madoka’s wish was actually rooted in desire to save all the mahou shoujo. It was not necessarily for Homura herself. It was to Homura’s credit that because she went through time loops many times and bound up the causalities so that Madoka possessed the power strong enough to bend and twist the law of causality. So Homura’s feeling was always facing towards Madoka, but Madoka came to understand the real feeling of Homura only after she got hold of the almighty power.

宇野：やっぱり、その点において彼女たちはすれ違ってしまっているわけですよね。 虚淵：そうですね。そしてすれ違いを解消するためにはまどかが人間から離れて神になるしかないという、ある意味ひどい話ですよね。

Uno – So on that part the girls were passing each other by. Urobuchi – Yes. And in order to resolve this passing-by Madoka could only depart from humans and become a goddess. In a sense it is a cruel story.

無性的な空間

宇野：「まどか」にしても同性間の関係というテーマはやはり重要だと思います。タイトルに「魔法少女」と入っていることもあって、多くの人 は「まどか」 に対してセクシュアルなイメージを持って見ていたという気がします。しかし、実際にはほとんど男性は登場しないし、ラストは少女たちの友情に着地するし、 一方で過剰にセクシュアルな表現を試みていながらもう一方では切断するようなこともやってみせる。そんな作品だったと思います。その意味では『鬼哭街』、 『Fate/Zero』、「まどか」といった作品を見ていくと、虚淵さんの作品にはセクシュアルなものがかなりの程度消失した、無性的な空間で何が起こる のかというモチーフが強く働いていると思いました。

Uno – I think in “Madoka” the theme of same-gender relationship is quite important. There is “mahou shoujo” in the title, and it seems that many watched Madoka with certain sexual image in mind. However in reality there were little appearance of male and the last part is anchored with the friendship between young girls. On one hand it was trying sexual presentation in overabundance, while on the other it tried to cut off that link. To me this is such a work. When I look at works like “The Cyber Slayer”, “Fate/Zero” and “Madoka” in this way, it seems to me that in your works a strong motive, where the sexual matter disappeared to a large extent and something happened in a sexless space, is at work.

虚淵：確かにそれはありますね。僕の場合、男と女の間に成立するような関係は、同姓同士でも成り立つものだろうと考えている部分があるのか もしれません。絶対に男女間でなければ成立しないようなモデルというのは、自分の中にあまり想定されていないように思います。セックスという要素は加わる ものの、男女間の関係が人間関係の中でそれほど特殊なものとは思えないんですよ。だからその気になれば、よりBLに近い形で、男同士のメロドラマもかける かもしれないですね。

Urobuchi – That much is certainly true. For me, perhaps there is part in my thought that said whatever relationship that could exist between male and female it should also exist between couples of same sex. Inside me, I could not imagine a model in which there is something that absolutely could only exist between male and female. Notwithstanding the extra element of sex, I do not believe male-female relationship is such a special thing among all the different inter-human relationships. Therefore if I really feel like doing, I may even try a melodrama between male couples, something like BL. [Alternative translation to the sentence starting with “Notwithstanding”: “Pushing aside the issue of male and female sex (the organs), I don’t believe a male/female relationship is more special nor unique compared to other relationships.” Or with context from what’s stated previously in the interview, it can be understood as, “Other than the involvement of penis in traditional sex definition, I don’t believe a male/female relationship is more special nor unique compared to other relationships.”]

Us Asians do not often admit things verbally, especially if it’s something deemed “forbidden” by the society. You’re not imagining when you think the majority of Asians you’ve met are shy, no because that’s our nature to be closed about individual opinions. If we want to say something to the public, either the topic has to be completely general, or we have to use metaphor to relay our (eccentric/minority) ideal indirectly.

In the interview, reporter Uno has gone to lengths before he dared to mention the issue of same-sex relationship which seemed to be prominent in MadoMagi.

The “miracle” that occurred from a base of the relationship of two people of the same gender in which one side had only barely one month of sharing time with the other side.

Uno also wanted to let Urobuchi know that he is not referring to same-sex friendship, but he had picked up something akin to male/female romantic one. Hence the mentioning:

Between Homura and Madoka sex as narrowly defined could not happen and no child could be born between them. However, from there a “miracle” was established.

In concrete Western terms, what Uno wanted to say was: “This work had done a wonderful portrayal of a relationship between 2 girls and the miracle it created. This relationship seemed to be the major point of MadoMagi. Strictly speaking, Homura and Madoka’s relationship cannot bear fruit for they can’t have sex (intercourse), yet the power it emitted was very strong. What do you have to say about this?”

To answer Uno, Urobuchi first explained about Homura and Madoka’s overall situation and what is so miracle about it:

“Homura’s feeling was always facing towards Madoka, but Madoka came to understand the real feeling of Homura only after she got hold of the almighty power….. In a sense it is a cruel story.

Uno had to prompted Urobuchi to answer more to the point he wanted to ask:

I think in “Madoka” the theme of same-gender relationship is quite important. There is “mahou shoujo” in the title, and it seems that many watched Madoka with certain sexual image in mind. However in reality there were little appearance of male and the last part is anchored with the friendship between young girls.

This paragraph meant: “Even though this is a magical girl series (traditionally aimed for little girls), what I’ve picked up from the audience’s reaction is that there are overt tone of romance in the show (he properly refer to the explosion of fanarts and doujinshi of HomuMado and KyouSaya). Yet, the romance in MadoMagi doesn’t involve any male, there are only girls in the show. Could you tell more why it is like this?”

Please notice, Uno didn’t dare to outright say the sexual images fan have for MadoMagi is lesbian stuff. That’d be impolite of him otherwise. Urobuchi answered:

That much is certainly true. For me, whatever relationship that could exist between male and female could also exist between couples of same sex…. Notwithstanding the extra element of sex, I do not believe male-female relationship is such a special thing among all the different inter-human relationships.

Urobuchi admitted Uno’s observation was correct, that the tone in MadoMagi indeed inspired artists and fans to fantasize about girl/girl. And he promptly added that to him, same sex relationships are equal to that of male/female, romantic or not.